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Post by NoChinDeluxe on Mar 31, 2009 14:10:58 GMT -5
TwistovF8: I'm not sure what I've done to make you continually out to get me for some reason. I've always tried to help on these forums and make things better for everyone. I'm sorry if I've offended you somehow, but I would appreciate if you'd stop singling me out as if I'm out to destroy our community or something. I've said nothing wrong on this thread and have done nothing to single anyone else out or tell anyone else they've done something wrong. So please stop. ian1983: Regardless of how many people participate on a regular basis, they are all members and have equal say. Even if a member has never played in a tournament ever, they still have a right to have a say in how we do things here. And once again, this is not an official poll, so any kind of majority vote doesn't necessarily determine anything. It's helpful for the discussion, however.
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Post by ian1983 on Mar 31, 2009 14:21:41 GMT -5
someone who has never played and never will play in a tourney has equal say as someone who has played in every single tourney? That's silly.
My whole point in this is in reaction to this kind of statement "any kind of majority vote doesn't necessarily determine anything" translated to me as "we don't care what you think even if we say we do"
And I really don't care which side of the argument I'm on. I'd rather the community have some real input instead of complete top down organization.
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Post by NoChinDeluxe on Mar 31, 2009 14:45:58 GMT -5
Ian, I want you to know that I agree with you. I really do. You are right. We're in this as a community and we should build this as a community. But I also want you to realize that the admins have put in so much hard work in the past few weeks to get a new season and a site up and running so that we can have a seamless transition. We've talked through this stuff (including AHOs) relentlessly. I wish you could see the hundreds of messages sent back and forth to each other, trying our hardest to make the best decision for the future of the league, for its members. I just want you to know that we are working hard for you guys, even though, in this thread, it appears to be the opposite.
My point is that we've had hours of discussion on this already, and our decision to leave AHO in was based on many other factors of the new format. So in all honesty, while we truly do value the opinions of all the members, decisions were already made based on factors that haven't even been discussed on this thread yet. In other words, we've talked this to death already and made a decision that was voted on for the best interests of all members of this league. We even went BACK and discussed it AGAIN when this thread appeared (hence my "let's see where this goes" comment). So I promise you that we listen and that we're interested in the best for you all and we've been hard at work to ensure that. I can safely speak for the other council members when I say that AHO will definitely be discussed for the WiiGA2. And hopefully, with the release of TW10, it won't even be a factor any more.
Thanks for your input Ian, and for your concern. We really value all members' opinions, especially those who show that passion that you have for fair play and an exceptional experience at the DGA.
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Post by giacomo on Mar 31, 2009 14:55:16 GMT -5
Ian, I think your comment gets to the heart of how this debate has evolved: this is no longer a discussion about AHOs and has become a discussion about decision-making about the group- the DGA now and WiiGA to be. I'd like to make a few comments and a suggestion:
First, the reasons I am against turning off AHOs have been given. But two are worth repeating with some additional context: 1. We did have some problems during NC play with having to adjust settings offline, using the right settings online, and then changing them back offline. Sorry, but not everyone is equally comfortable with even that level of technology management. Unless we want to relearn the lesson, I think we're better off not requiring such manipulations. If anyone wants to play with AHOs, or spin, or putt preview or any other game advantage off, I would certainly be in favor of modifying the rules to accept and even encourage it. But I do think the NC experience did suggest that offline manipulations simply make engaging in the matches a bit harder for the average player. 2. We have talked about using stock characters in the WiiGA- both the admins and elsewhere among the DGA members on this board. If we employ stock characters going forward, then AHOs will cease to be an issue, because play won't be based on the player's characteristics, but on the characteristics of the stock player. I am very much in favor of working with stock characters. Assuming we do, then the effect will be to render the AHO issue moot. So why require turning them off when the having them on won't differentially affect the game?
Net, I understand why people don't like the AHOs; I just think there may be better, lower effort ways to level the playing field.
Now, for my suggestion. I think a lot of the passion in some of the posts has to do with the way decisions are made rather than what decision was made. If members posting to this thread have such a concern, it might be more productive to open up a thread in the rules section to discuss changes to the rules and operations that would provide a better experience. And as I write this, I keep thinking: yeah- be sure to read rule #1.
A final comment- as an admin, my only concern is trying to maximize the fun for everyone. This ain't a paid position, and no lobbyists are knocking at my door to bribe me. I AM listening. But what I'm hearing isn't just "turn off AHOs!" I'm hearing "level the playing field/reduce the game interference" and "broaden the input to decisions." I promise, we're working on the former and have some good ideas about how to do it; and discussing the latter makes sense to me- but let's do it in a thread about governance and the rules. This group belongs to all of us. If it's time to discuss how we make decisions and run things, let's talk about it.
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Post by TheJokker on Mar 31, 2009 19:05:19 GMT -5
I hate to add to this anymore but let me say a couple more things. First, when I first joined the DGA I was a bit overwhelmed with the rules for DGA play and official tournaments. I even had thoughts of 'maybe not for me'. With years of PC experience I was still concerned whether I wanted to go through a bunch of system changes all the time to comply with the rules. I was very interested in what some of the members had posted here so I started reading the posts. After reading several posts I realized the settings were not quite as mentioned in the rules. If we want to increase membership here, we do need to keep it relatively simple to comply with DGA rules.
After 19 rounds of DGA tournaments with fairly respectable result I decided to double check my game settings. Sure enough, my AHO was off, I have never changed my game settings since my original setup after purchase. So I said to myself, what the heck, then I set my AHO 'on', just to try it once. Then I found putterrr in the chat room and hooked up my last tournament round at Doral. Well as everyone knows, Doral is AHO heaven. Well before the first tee-off I was already very concerned about the outcome with AHO 'on' (wishing I hadn't changed it). As it turned out, putterrr finished with a 48 and I had 49. BUT ! ! ! neither one of us had a single AHO on any hole, not even one ! ! ! I had several close shots and putterrr probably had even more. So explain this, on Doral, no AHO's, with my AHO 'on'. We had a great round of golf. So, does it really even change the game?
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Post by Snapjack43 on Mar 31, 2009 19:13:35 GMT -5
You are exactly right Jokker!! We've also done some experimenting with the AHO on/off thing and found the same thing. There seems to be no rhyme nor reason to the AHO's. Personally I never would have imagined the brew ha ha that this AHO issue has created, and for what? We need to let this issue go. Listen to what Jokker has just said guys, AHO on, AHO off, it really makes no difference.
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Post by TwistovF8 on Mar 31, 2009 19:18:49 GMT -5
Thanks for your post Jokker.
"If we want to increase membership here, we do need to keep it relatively simple to comply with DGA rules."
After giving it more thought, ultimately that argument wins the day for me. That is the point that Hog, Buddah, Snap, Giacomo, and Nochin have noted at various times.
Your findings regarding the settings making no difference are eye opening! Nice work.
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Post by TwistovF8 on Mar 31, 2009 19:38:16 GMT -5
Ok, I've had my fill of drama. Somehow this train became a runaway freight car. Giacomo thanks for being the voice of reason. Nochin, I thought you wanted to lock the thread again. It was wrong of me to assume that it was you, it could have been anyone. I thought I was just citing precedent, but in hindsight, I can see how you would feel it was an unnecessary and uncalled for personal dig. I would feel the same way. I apologize for dredging up something from the past that is old news and resolved. Snap, thank you for stepping in to clarify things in a very positive way. Honestly Twist, I didn't even really look at it until last night. I got a PM this morning and then I posted. As far as the poll is concerned, I wasn't going to say anything until I was absolutely sure of how I felt about it. [snip] I think you are being a little tough on me Twist. The DGA is not my league as you say. It never has been. The WiiGA is not mine either. The members own it and we set it up to reflect just that. This job ain't easy but I do it because I believe in what this league is about. Buddah already knows this, but if it were not for the fact that Chrome went missing, I would have already stepped down. When the new league is up and stable, the admins will pick a replacement for me and I know they will make the right choices as they have already proven time after time. I will always be a member and that's what is important to me. I'm sorry you feel like you have wasted your time on the AHO poll. Please don't believe for one second that the opinions of our great members fall on deaf ears. It's just not true. I hope you believe me. Keep posting and give me your honest opinions as you always do. They do matter Twist. I'm listening. I believe you Hog. And always have. I am sorry if I have been tough on you. I want to make one thing as clear as possible. I don't always agree with you. I may challenge you on matters where we don't see eye to eye. But I have tremendous respect and appreciation for you. I could never have done what you have done and continue to do for the benefit of us all handling the day to day responsibilities of running the DGA. Your devotion to making the DGA the best environment it could be has been a great success. It is obvious to me that you were not motivated by self promotion. You never told us about your conquests in EA play. When you did mention something about a significant victory in EA play, it was about a white flag being raised because of Buddah's outstanding play. I cheered when I read your post (link really) because Buddah had always been an outstanding DGA competitor, but more importantly, because he was always funny, kind, helpful and patient in the DGA's earliest days. I still remember those times when I bugged him in the old chat room while he was at work. I considered him a friend, and still do. We had to hear about his achievements from you because Buddah never discussed his personal triumphs and /or ranking. Whenever you have spoken out in the heat of the moment, if you presented something in a way that may have been perceived as inappropriate, and it was brought to your attention, you never hesitated to step up, swallow your pride, apologize, and clarify your views. I believe that you did this for the good of the league, and of course, because you are a genuinely stand up guy. Because of your efforts in running the DGA, all of us who are fortunate enough to be members of the league have a destination for fair and fun competitive gameplay, and the potential for amazing camaraderie. To some, the league is two rounds a week in the midst of countless EA online rounds. Thanks to your efforts, for many of us it has become THE destination for honest, fun, friendly, challenging competition. For many lucky folks --including me-- genuine friendships have grown out of swinging a wiimote and checking into the DGA chatroom. As I've said before, what you have done in running this league has been thankless and selfless. I am saddened to hear that you are planning to step down from admin duties. While you do deserve a chance to just play and relax, the selfish part of me wants you to continue on in your position as admin for the foreseeable future. When you do step down, there is no question that the league --whatever it may be called-- will never be the same. But you can be sure that for those of us who have been here from the earliest days, your contributions will never be forgotten. So if I've been hard on you, I am truly sorry. But just like you, I also want the very best for our league. And if I have contributed anything as a member, I hope I have been the consistent advocate for the value of differing points of view coming from the diverse membership that we are privileged to be a part of. And for that, I make no apologies. Hog, we do have some very crucial characteristics in common. You care very much about the league. So do I. I have always recognized that, for better or worse, you speak from your heart. I appreciate that because I always do as well. Bring on the Match Play Playoffs! Good luck to all of us.
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Post by NoChinDeluxe on Mar 31, 2009 22:30:25 GMT -5
The End.
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Post by Buddah on Apr 1, 2009 8:54:19 GMT -5
The End?? Can it really be the end already?? What am I going to read about while I'm at work?
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Post by ian1983 on Apr 1, 2009 9:44:21 GMT -5
It's a farce to say that AHO on/off makes no difference. I've NEVER had an AHO with it off and get at least one a round with it on. I guess if you say something enough it becomes true. It's cool, there were plenty of WMD in Iraq too.
"These are not the droids you're looking for"
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Post by Snapjack43 on Apr 1, 2009 10:19:49 GMT -5
Well Buddah, are you happy now, Ian just can't leave it alone. Maybe we can get the pot boiling again?
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Post by Buddah on Apr 1, 2009 10:24:56 GMT -5
I didn't really need anything more on this subject to read while working... TheJokkers riddles are better than this ;D
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Post by NoChinDeluxe on Apr 1, 2009 10:40:25 GMT -5
Buddah and I played all night last night and he was scoring AHOs like crazy and he had them turned off. So continuing to say it the other direction doesn't make it happen either, apparently.
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Post by TwistovF8 on Apr 1, 2009 10:42:16 GMT -5
Hi Ian,
The decision had already been made. It's going to stick. I'm sure there are other people who want to experiment with aho off, me included. The truth is, I have to agree that the newcomers may be turned off by things they don't understand. Increasing the number of active members is in the best interest of all of us. Keeping things simple for newcomers is a good way to try to achieve that goal.
You, I and others will see for ourselves whether or not AHO makes a difference online. I haven't had enough experience with it to say one way or another; I have no reason to doubt other members who reported their findings. After playing many online rounds that way, we can then report back our findings.
See you on the links.
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