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Post by Buddah on Mar 30, 2009 11:07:25 GMT -5
Buddah: That's probably my main reason for not changing settings like AHO. I remember during an NC match my opponent made a hole-in-one. What do I do at that moment? I don't want to go accusing members of cheating, but I also wanted to know how the heck someone got a hole-in-one with advanced swing on and AHO turned off. Then what happens if my opponent says, "Oh, you know what? I accidentally forgot to turn of AHO." Do we void his scores? You can see the complication that comes out of this. Like I mentioned... I got at least one ACE and at least one D.Eagle when we were playing NC, and I had all my setting correct.
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Post by putterrr on Mar 30, 2009 11:14:01 GMT -5
Buddah
Can I ask if you got 1, 2, or even 4 per game or just a random few?
You and i have had some good matches but the number of AHO was consistently more then 1 per game.
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Post by TwistovF8 on Mar 30, 2009 11:26:40 GMT -5
That's probably my main reason for not changing settings like AHO. I remember during an NC match my opponent made a hole-in-one. What do I do at that moment? I don't want to go accusing members of cheating, but I also wanted to know how the heck someone got a hole-in-one with advanced swing on and AHO turned off. See my post above, regarding less variables in the video game resulting in greater likelihood of "perfect shots" and therefore of Hole in Ones and Hole-outs in TW09. Also, just to avoid any possibility of confusion, this particular discussion and poll is about AHO OFF, not about advanced swing. Do we void his scores? You can see the complication that comes out of this. Then what happens if my opponent says, "Oh, you know what? I accidentally forgot to turn of AHO." Yes, scores with AHO on are voided, what's complicated about that? If the member says, "I checked and absolutely AHO's were OFF," that's good enough for me.
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Post by NoChinDeluxe on Mar 30, 2009 11:40:43 GMT -5
It's not that it's complicated as in it's confusing...I mean it's complicated in that it's more work. You have to have these discussions for one thing, and if scores have already been reported, it's more work for admins to have to have these discussions, then go back and change scores. I know that doesn't sound like much, but if you get a bunch of cases where this happens it would complicate things and make the operation of the league less streamlined.
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Post by Buddah on Mar 30, 2009 11:55:50 GMT -5
Buddah Can I ask if you got 1, 2, or even 4 per game or just a random few? You and i have had some good matches but the number of AHO was consistently more then 1 per game. I'm trying to do this from memory, you bear with me... But I'm pretty sure that I had a round that we were playing NC at Doral and I had 3 maybe 4 AHO's in that round. I verified my durning and after the round and everything was set correctly. I knew for sure a couple were from the computer because I was taking swings for a 90% shot, but after hitting the ball the indicator would 66% and I knew that it was going in.
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Post by putterrr on Mar 30, 2009 11:56:54 GMT -5
No offense but the members here are quite capable of making a few simple changes. Don't we play many matches here with different passwords where everyone seems to make it to the match?
There will be nothing for the admin to do because no accidental scores will be posted.
If you have to cheat to win, then good on ya. Just let me know in chat so I can give you the win and before we tee off. That way I can spend my time playing like minded players instead.
In the games I have had so far that were irons only and AHO off, we had no problems with anyone being able to set the game settings correctly or not using their driver. This is not complicated so why make it so. It's just a poll.
YES or NO.
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Post by TheJokker on Mar 30, 2009 12:03:11 GMT -5
Just a quick mention, my AHO's have been off since day 1 with TW09. I have had so many AHO's it surprises me at times. I have had at least 4 or 5 in a few matches.
When I played my first couple matches here in DGA tournaments I was worried that my opponents might think AHO's were on. This was a real concern because I like to play DGA and did not want another situation where someone feels a need to create a poll, lmao. So on the following holes, when my shot was very close to the hole, I hesitatedon my shot hoping they would see my close shot did not go in. I got very lucky on my first few games and was very concerned my opponents might wonder about AHO's. I even spun one of my shots that was going in, to make it miss, was already to many strokes up.
My main question here is, there is no visual way to check your opponents settings before or after a match, correct? If there is no way, then I should have voted no. We don't want arguing or bad reputations from something that cannot be verified. Some of us can at times calcuate our wind, elevation and club swing very closely, if we are close enough, IT WILL GO IN.
After all this debate, there is only one reasonable conclusion. We simply tell all members to turn AHO's off. Then hope they do and play some golf with no accusations or further discussion. I will only play DGA matches now, unless I am bored and no members are online. You guys are the best of the best, you don't need AHO's to beat me or anyone else.
IF THERE IS NO WAY TO VERIFY, THEN YOU CAN'T MAKE RULES ! ! !
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Post by giacomo on Mar 30, 2009 12:08:50 GMT -5
Okay, I voted no so that there'd be a clear dissent. Here's why: I don't like the "dynamic handicapping," AHO, "golf fairy," "golf devil" any more than anyone else does. I'd like to have my shots treated according to one standard set of laws of physics. I'd love to get rid of all game "interference" no matter whether it helps or hurts. And we've all seen both kinds. The problem is, turning it off in my local settings doesn't eliminate the behavior online. I get AHOs just the same, though less frequently. I get punished if I try to reach the 2nd landing area hitting into the wind just as much with it on or off. My putt stops on the lip just as much as well. The mechanics of the game take game situations and player characteristics into account and throw monkey wrenches according to some algorithm none of us understands. But it happens online regardless of AHOs being turned on or off!
So if we set a rule turning them off, and then they happen, what do we do? Review every instance? What happens when someone gets 3 AHOs in a match instead of one or two? Do we make him/her swear on a stack of bibles that they had AHOs off? I, for one, will NOT act as a policeman. And while the nature of the DGA (and the WiiGA to come) is certainly the same as the integrity that caused J.P. Hayes to lose out at Q school last December, Hayes didn't have to differentiate between what he was doing and how God might have changed the laws of physics on him.
I think the NC experiment taught one thing for sure: trying to alter the mechanics of the game through settings has a limited benefit, and multiple consequences. I think we are best off leaving the game settings in a standard state and then we can tell what the gods of EA are doing and what we are doing. And let's hope things are different and better in TW10.
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Post by TwistovF8 on Mar 30, 2009 12:55:56 GMT -5
Giacomo, I have to disagree with you here. What do we do when Hole-Outs occur and we question whether they were "Assisted"? Exactly what we do now. Live with it and play on. Nobody can or should act as a policeman. We have to have trust in our fellow member's integrity. To those of us who regularly play each other in unofficial matches, this is a given.
My understanding of the decision to drop NC was that it had little or nothing to do with AHOs. It was about increasing the membership. The very best players who played it frequently loved it. The more casual, arguably less skilled players did not. Membership declined steadily. I did not like it for one reason: the lack of putt preview. With the limited time I had to devote to TW09, I did not enjoy struggling with the putting in NC DGA play.
Given that TW09 is a video game, Hole Outs and Hole In Ones are fine. It is the frequent and intrusive "Assists" that are the problem. Even if "Assists" are not completely eliminated, if turning AHOs OFF reduces the number, that's a move in the right direction.
And ultimately, if someone cheats and gives themselves an unfair advantage, the worst possible thing that can happen is that they might shoot a lower score than you. How many among us do you really think would enjoy getting the lowest score by that means?
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Post by giacomo on Mar 30, 2009 13:14:41 GMT -5
Hmmm- I may not have done a good job of making my point:
I absolutely agree with your first paragraph. Thought I said the same thing, but may not have made it clear.
My point on NC wasn't that we stopped it because of AHOs- it was that part of the circumstances that emerged with NC play was that the online game still intervened! Turning off spin was more effective than turning off AHOs because of the conditions of online play. So inserting an additional requirement for all our players in setting up a match and turning it off may simply add a needless step that won't generate the benefit we hope for. My point in raising NC was that we have direct experience that shows that only part of our goal in changing online game conditions was met, and it was expressly AHOs that didn't go away.
I agree that TW09 is a video game. It has behaviors that are not particularly predictable. My point was that turning off AHOs with the intent of achieving a particular objective is not only likely to create some minor management problems, but is also unlikely to have the desired effect. I suspect that the discussion that raised the notion of stock characters would have more of the desired effect that we seek.
Finally, I'm not worried about cheating, or about someone getting better scores. As a matter of firm principle I trust the integrity of every member of the DGA, and would never assume or look for cheating. What I am concerned about is having the most trouble-free, most level playing field; and I'm not convinced that turning off AHOs gets us closer.
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Post by NoChinDeluxe on Mar 30, 2009 13:31:14 GMT -5
Let me remind everyone of something, and I find myself reminding even the WiiGA council of this sometimes in our discussions:
Tournament settings only apply to official tournament rounds. That means that you guys can play your games with whatever settings you want. If you want to play irons only, with no AHO, then please do that...it sounds like a lot of fun and I'd love to try it sometime. But for the sake of keeping things easy and simple for official rounds without many extra steps or things to "police," I don't think keeping AHO on for official rounds is too big a deal. That's 20 rounds out of a 10 week period that we play that way. So think of how many rounds you play in 10 weeks. Subtract the number of official rounds (20), and I can guarantee you that the majority of us play more unofficial rounds than official ones.
In these types of discussions, it's easy to start thinking that all matches with all DGA members must be played a certain way. Not true. You are free to play with each other how you like, but we are trying to keep things for official rounds as standard as possible.
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Post by TwistovF8 on Mar 30, 2009 14:18:15 GMT -5
In these types of discussions, it's easy to start thinking that all matches with all DGA members must be played a certain way. Not true. You are free to play with each other how you like, but we are trying to keep things for official rounds as standard as possible. The problem with that rationale is that people will practice courses with the setup options of the tournament courses. You know, for example, that AHOs prefer some power percentage swings more than others. Also, many valued members play many, many rounds helping people get their rounds in. I guess it boils down to whether we want the WiiGA competition to be a truly different alternative to EA online or simply an extension of it. Giacomo, again I think there has to be a distinction made between "hole outs" and "assists". In my view, video games are far more predictable than real life. On a real course, the wind gusting or not anytime during flight, the slightest change of direction of the wind, divots where the ball hits, etc will change the outcome of the shot. The conditions in TW09 are static; they do not change during the shot. With practice and familiarity, conditions of wind, lie, pin position etc are easily taken into account and adjusted for. For the more practiced players, this results in the not infrequent scores in the mid-40s. While not as predictable as a joystick, the consistency of certain players demonstrates that the wiimote can be mastered. I don't doubt that players like Buddah and Putterrr are going to knock in their share of Hole Outs. Clay and I might get one here and there --we can and do hit the occasional perfect shot, but we lack consistency. Many of Giacomo's concerns are directed at the unfairness of suspected dynamic handicapping, ie putts not behaving as they should etc. We've all experienced it, we all hate it. It does suck! Unfortunately we don't have control over dynamic handicapping. But we do have control over a setting that claims to turn AHOs off. If it doesn't, what have we lost? As I said before, even if "Assists" are not completely eliminated, if turning AHOs OFF reduces the number, that's a move in the right direction. What do we have to lose by trying AHOs OFF? There is a strong possibility that turning off AHOs would make the WiiGA even more attractive to new members seeking an alternative to EA play anyone.
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Post by hoghead on Mar 30, 2009 14:53:39 GMT -5
Hey guys, I see we have a real AHO problem here. Just for the heck of it, I voted too. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but here it goes. There will be no league option of turning off AHO's manually in any tournament in season I of the WiiGA. If EA decides not to fix the problem, there will still be no official games with the manual disabling of the AHO option in season I or any other season in the new league as long as I am an admin. I am convinced I can get a majority vote for that not to happen. It did not work out in the previous season. We tried it. I wish it did. I really liked it. It did not. We voted to remove it for season III and we discussed it for the new league. We had to weigh the pros and cons of making this part of the league. For now unless EA is willing to adjust it's servers, there will be no manual disabling of AHO's for official league play. Sorry
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Post by putterrr on Mar 30, 2009 15:49:12 GMT -5
There you go, Admin has spoken.
I for one will play anyone anytime with this option disabled whether an OFFICIAL event or not. You want to do any other stuff, let me know.
Cheers
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Post by hoghead on Mar 30, 2009 18:21:54 GMT -5
I will also play with AHO turned off. I just don't want the headache of making it official.
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